How is social order maintained?

[Witty]

So I've decided to study sociology and psychology in my spare time. Pretty basic shit so far, but do you think our social order is maintained by conflict or by consensus...does society function due to the ruling classes or by the togetherness of the people?

Are our values agreed or dictated?

[Diode]

Increasingly by the ruling classes, as it had been for hundreds of years.

The 20th Century was an anomaly.

[Inno]

Everything is dictated.

"If there's an original thought out there I could use it now"

[Chill Phil]

Increasingly by the ruling classes, as it had been for hundreds of years.

The 20th Century was an anomaly.

that.

checks and balances. freedom vs order and shit

[Aero]

Our social structure begins with the basic familial unit. We are dominated by our basic survival needs of food, clothing and shelter then it's the need for companionship etc all beginning in a familial unit. It's how nature formed us as homosapiens.

[Witty]

I see your point and agree, but what about our values? How we treat each other? Is it all dictated or do we reach a societal understanding based on what benefits society as a whole? If we were not given laws, would we behave in a civilised manner as it would be best for everyone?

Obv there are criminals and whatnot who already don't do this, but I mean the wider population of civilised countries.

[Diode]

well now you're just getting into the old nature vs. nurture argument.

[uh-oh]

Hey dummies

The threat of violence is all that keeps it together

[Destroyer]

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

[Diode]

Hey dummies

The threat of violence is all that keeps it together

False. There are many who don't flinch at violence nor value life.

see: ISIS.

Violence does not deter them. The ruling class does, by manipulating their effect on the world (for better or for worse) via money, alliances, and religion.

[~RustyGunZ~]

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

No way bro

Clearly the illuminati

[its faggot zelph]

Didn't know that

[Witty]

Who mentioned the illuminati?

I'm talking our governments. Our political classes.

[~RustyGunZ~]

Who mentioned the illuminati?

I'm talking our governments. Our political classes.

Doesn't matter who you're talm bout the nati all up in it

[Witty]

They done shot my dog.

[~RustyGunZ~]

Must've known state secrets

That's on you bro dogs shouldn't be snooping into such things

[Witty]

They said he was a whistle blower...I don't remember teaching him that trick :(

[Useless]

U were the whistle blower. They killed the dog to get to u


It's ur fault he's dead

[oats]

I see your point and agree, but what about our values? How we treat each other? Is it all dictated or do we reach a societal understanding based on what benefits society as a whole? If we were not given laws, would we behave in a civilised manner as it would be best for everyone?

Obv there are criminals and whatnot who already don't do this, but I mean the wider population of civilised countries.

Hernando de Soto wrote an excellent book kind of about this (The Mystery of Capital, I believe it's called). In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Values are cultural though, and as such they're malleable.

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

[Destroyer]

hey oats

what the fuck is water?

[oats]

lol what do you mean? Also, start off with Tupac's greatest hits album Destroyer

[veritas]

So is man by default good or evil?

[Destroyer]

oats, isn't that what the one fish says to the other?

[oats]

one fish told the other to start with Pac's Greatest Hits album? Sounds like two dope fishes.

also, 2DopeFishes to replace 2DopeBoys 2016.

[Destroyer]

does your sig have nothing to do with DFW?

[Destroyer]

it's Bruce Lee, isn't it?

[uh-oh]

False. There are many who don't flinch at violence nor value life.

see: ISIS.

Violence does not deter them. The ruling class does, by manipulating their effect on the world (for better or for worse) via money, alliances, and religion.
Isis is the ruling class. Whereever they are at least. They rule through the fear of violence. Not just because they will burn you alive if you are a sorceror, but they will use the fear of the west againsg their own people to get their own people to enlist and commit violence to establish dominance in there region

Its all violence and the threat of it. We are living creatures whose movements are determined by self preservation. We can have ideaologies and agendas that seem unique but in the end its to further our own lives. If an al qaeda leader or isis or hezbollah or filthy jew can brainwash someone into blowing themselves up, he furthered his own agenda at living longer while also instilling fear in others further empowering himself. And the person dead was fucking stupid. Darwinism. The smart guy talked the dumb guy into dying.

[PancakeBrah]

uh oh needs to chill with the whole thinking thing

[oats]

uh oh needs to chill with the whole thinking thing

repped


and yes it's Bruce, Destroyer

[Pharaohs Army]

So is man by default good or evil?

jesus christ... that's not a very nuanced question.

[uh-oh]

Hernando de Soto wrote an excellent book kind of about this (The Mystery of Capital, I believe it's called). In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.

Values are cultural though, and as such they're malleable.

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

how do you enforce laws?

Check

[Witty]

uh-oh does consensus factor in to your world view at all?

[uh-oh]

For sure

The general consensus of all humans is we dont want sharp things entering our bodies or blunt objects crashing into us. People and cultures set up rules that you can follow to lower the probability that it will happen to them.

If you steal from me i want to harm you. So dont steal. If you harm me and i survive i can end you so you dont harm me again. Etc.

We can pretend we arent animals but we are. Nothing is complex. We can study the structures of society like laws political institutions and everything else but its all derived from the avoidance of physical harm.

[Pharaohs Army]

#rant
etc
etc

In short, social order could always collapse but it takes "something big", whether it's a jarring event, or a slower decline from unaddressed systemic issues.

[Witty]

Edit - twice.

[Witty]

@pharaoh's army - I read an opinion that what Marx failed to také in to account was the drive and ability of the opressed to overcome as individual rather than as a unit, and that his worldview supposed that the weak and downtrodden will always be so unless they unite, disregarding individuality as a means to escape.

Would you agree? I think he was right about the problem, but fell short on the solution.

[Destroyer]

to answer veritas' question

Man is neither evil or good by default because both qualities are subjective and it is man himself who decides what falls into which category.

[Hush]

Uh oh got a point


Balance is maintained by the threat of pain of death

[Wise Wiggles]

It's like the movies, only real.

[Pharaohs Army]

I'd argue that intellect plays a bigger role than its getting credit for here

True.

After I posted, I realized that you had said this, succinctly, b4 i said
Perhaps at some point humans just realized "why pick this berry or vegetable if I can work together with fellow humans to grow them and feed the whole family? or the whole tribe. and store some for winter. and trade them for furs, which I don't have, but, this other guy who lives close by specializes in them".. etc etc
-
@pharaoh's army - I read an opinion that what Marx failed to také in to account was the drive and ability of the opressed to overcome as individual rather than as a unit, and that his worldview supposed that the weak and downtrodden will always be so unless they unite, disregarding individuality as a means to escape.

Would you agree? I think he was right about the problem, but fell short on the solution.

sounds very Ayn-Randish. lol.. altho i pretty much agree..
right about the problem, fell short on solution.. totalitarians certainly hurt his cause haha.

But tbh you are starting another topic...I know some basic things, but frankly I haven't read Marx... & I don't know how to answer your initial question bout the maintenance of social order without doing at least a little research.

the commie thing was me grasping for a quick example..
perhaps rather than philosophy/ideology- written my marx/engel- i should have pointed to the Russian revolution itself... The way ruling class toppled; there were breaking points, etc.
Although a new social order rose- probly quicker- than other "topplings" in different places&times.. Bah!

In it, he makes a pretty compelling case that one of the most important aspects of social order/development is an enforced legal infrastructure. There's a reason "law" and "order" tend to go hand in hand.
Again hedging- haven't read the de Soto book... But what you've summarized here makes me wonder-- Which comes first?.. Could an enforced legal structure technically come After social order/development?... semantics?
probably more like a perpetual cycle, more laws&enforcement with more order; more order with more laws&enforcement.
Is this coherent? I think u said somethin bout a chicken&egg few weeks ago.

[Chyeahhh!!!]

good moralistic values are superficial. Nobody helps the old lady across the street because it's imbedded in your DNA to do so anymore, more so it's the brains chemical or electric response to guilt and shame if you don't.

[Objective]

My recent hobby-learning has been neuro-economics, I think you'd enjoy getting into it.

Elab? Read a little bit on wikipedia, seems very interesting. Any specific books/online articles you recommend?

Also, on topic: going to read this thread and see if there's anything more to add. But my general stance as of now without reading anything is that the concept of morals is flawed and is hugely based on principles the majority stands behind that has little to no ground in reality and is solely based on survival and comfort, ego and tribe mentality. It can't boil down to intellect as some of the most intelligent people are serial killers and messed up narcissists with values that are fucked up and surpass most peoples understanding of right/wrong, certain rules are taught and followed but not understood etc. Seems like uhoh and destro is already covering it. Looking forward to read the thread in its entirety. Good thread.

[sral]

does pharaoahs army not have an enter button on his keyboard?

his posts are probably beneficial to the thread but my eyes wont let me read those walls bruh

[veritas]

Is man by nature good or evil?

[Destroyer]

stop asking this stupid fucking question.
Man defines those parameters.

[veritas]

Well obv man is evil bc man has made so many rules?

[uh-oh]

Veritas is a doofus lmao

[veritas]

Not at all. My question is central to this philosophizing.

[~RustyGunZ~]

Man is evil

Which is why people are afraid to die and laws and regulations are out in place to protect us all from each other

[veritas]

Man is evil

Which is why people are afraid to die and laws and regulations are out in place to protect us all from each other

I would agree with this at its core. Who else would?

[Saint]

Golden Rule

[uh-oh]

There is no such thing as evil

[Objective]

Man is evil

Which is why people are afraid to die and laws and regulations are out in place to protect us all from each other

Man is not evil nor good. The concept of right/wrong is flawed, morals is flawed, ethos and all that shit is fucked. The only reason we're afraid to die is because if evolution didn't take care of that part we wouldn't give a shit and die as a species early on and we wouldn't have this conversation. It makes sense to make these rules for future survival as a whole and thus politics are formed but boils down to sheer neanderthal survival mechanisms.

We are still tribe people and hold on to those values. If you don't believe me ask yourself this: why do you value family/close friends above strangers? From a neutral standpoint a human being is no different from another human being. What we perceive as good and gives us joy is simply so you won't enter depression and kill yourself because the Übermensch does not exist yet, and this ''intelligent design'' is indeed just as flawed as the concept of good and bad.

[veritas]

Then why are there laws? If man isn't evil he shouldn't need laws?

[Sovereign]

social order is maintained because everyone is conditioned from birth to accept it

the herd instinct is strong, also

[Objective]

social order is maintained because everyone is conditioned from birth to accept it

the herd instinct is strong, also
Veritas the invincible: read the above. This is basically my point and Sovereign kinda nailed it. We only got laws because they were needed. ''Our lives are at stake/we're dying out because of x-reason and/or our lives may severely be at stake if we continue to do this and that''. In order to function as a group which was important way back when hunting with sticks and stones or fighting off nearby tribes was important is still hard wired in our brains. People are wired differently too mentally so in order to keep everyone in check with the massive explosion of cities our brains aren't developed enough for yet laws is simply the messed up result. Call it insanity if you wish. They're there for a reason ofc. and I believe we need them but that's not my point.

There's cultures where laws are non-existent because they depend on each other for survival, and help each other through thick and thin. ''Civilized society'' my ass, it's total chaos but we conform to those close to us and who they follow again on basic principles boiling down to means of survival.

At least I believe it to be so, feel free to prove me wrong. I am open for debate.