Is 'reality' as we know it a dream?

[Masaii]

Ill start this by quoting Zhuangzi;
"Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi."

My question is, if this life as we know it is perception of our own reality and our reality is simply our central nervous system sending electrical signals throughout our body, how do we that any of this is real? Like Zhuangzi, I could be living my life as a dream, not really existing, just being in-between an alternate reality. Just because I can experience physical pain does not necessarily make me 'real'.

I am dumbfounded. I know there is no right or wrong answer here but please share your thoughts as this will torment my mind until I can make any kind of sense of it, which I don't think is entirely possible...

[Wise Wiggles]

Roll roll roll your boat bro

[Masaii]

I asked the same question on a different website

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/is-reality-as-we-know-it-a-dream-64278.html

it will be interesting to compare answers

i have mind fucked myself

[Dr Expert]

Paging Dr. Rawn. Paging Dr. Namix. Dr. Namix we’re going to need a metaphysical discussion on the nature of duality and the transcendence of space-time through spiritual evolution STAT. Dr. Rawn were going to need you to come out of hiding ASAP to provide a second opinion and extensive wikipedia research.

(I think I am an expert therefore I am an expert).

[Ryan 12]

i wish this was a dream so i could kill everyone and live like an animal

[Ryan 12]

nah but

dreams are a subset of reality, specifically brain functions & neuron activity. assuming this is a dream opens doors to a whole lot of shit, not specifically good either

and not to mention if this is a dream, everything is an illusion including all the pussies you've fucked

so basically, you're a virgin



step ya virtual game up, br0

[veritas]

next watch a movie "a waking life". Get back to me.

[dead man]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

[Witty]

My problem with things like this is it is all just pure speculation, which is ok, but when people start believing things like this as factual it becomes a problem.

The same issue I have with religion, really.

[dead man]

WE R NOT HERE WITTY STOP

U R MY DREAM FRIEND

[Witty]

WE R NOT HERE WITTY STOP

U R MY DREAM FRIEND

I am honoured, Sir.

[Wise Wiggles]

YOU ARE MY ONE GAY FRIEND WITTY

[namix]

the only difference is your brain frequency, which allows you to perceive time in a waken state and not in a dream state as you move through alpha into delta.

and because of our perception of time, our perception of 'manifestation' is slower.

That's why what ever we think in a dream happens instantaneously, but we believe we do not have the same influence in our waken state due to the latency between imagination and reality.

woof.

[Witty]

YOU ARE MY ONE GAY FRIEND WITTY

I am honoured, Sir.

[Ryan 12]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL



good grief

[PancakeBrah]

Had a dream a couple nights ago wherein a I could do a back flip. Ergo, dreams are not reality.

Nice try fagboys

[Witty]

I can backflip on a trampoline and land on my feet.

True Story.

I can't do it on solid ground though, I'm not Asian.

[Ryan 12]

kill yourself, seriously. then you'll know for sure if you're dreaming or not

[Masaii]

Okay then, ill add in Astral projection to the mix.

What if when one masters this, they are traveling to the 'true' world where the soul exists. I have astral projected once momentarily before I returned. It was an amazing experience.

@Veritas didn't you say I came to you in a dream once? (no rawnmo)

[Just C]

We don't know. We just live. All the proof points to it being real. We feel it, we hear it, we smell it, we see it. What proof it isn't real is strong enough to counter the above proof?

You waste your time trying to figure this out you'll drive yourself nuts. Take it for what it is, go with it and enjoy the ride I say.

[PancakeBrah]

I tend to agree with Just C. When I was younger debates and ideas like this interested me but now it just seems so pointless. If dreams are reality, cool. If dreams arent, cool. I'm not going to be the human who figures out and unlocks the truth in existentialism. Enjoy the ride and let the philo majors and thinktanks busy themselves with the impossible quandaries of being. I prefer not to fall in the well while looking at the stars.

[Dr Expert]

the only difference is your brain frequency, which allows you to perceive time in a waken state and not in a dream state as you move through alpha into delta.

and because of our perception of time, our perception of 'manifestation' is slower.

That's why what ever we think in a dream happens instantaneously, but we believe we do not have the same influence in our waken state due to the latency between imagination and reality.

woof.


Excellent work Dr. Namix, but it looks like the patient is still asking philosophical questions. We're going to need to get him started on a second course. I recommend at least 6 more paragraphs, preferably administered in a wall-of-text format.

[Masaii]

We don't know. We just live. All the proof points to it being real. We feel it, we hear it, we smell it, we see it. What proof it isn't real is strong enough to counter the above proof?

You waste your time trying to figure this out you'll drive yourself nuts. Take it for what it is, go with it and enjoy the ride I say.

The bodily senses. feel, seeing etc. If real is defined as those then it is merely your central nervous system projecting itself. Although if you are not 'real' to begin with, then how do you know that any of these senses or yourself for that matter even exist?

[Ryan 12]

I tend to agree with Just C. When I was younger debates and ideas like this interested me but now it just seems so pointless. If dreams are reality, cool. If dreams arent, cool. I'm not going to be the human who figures out and unlocks the truth in existentialism. Enjoy the ride and let the philo majors and thinktanks busy themselves with the impossible quandaries of being. I prefer not to fall in the well while looking at the stars.

some institutions offer up to a billion dollars for the solving of certain mysteries

not to mention bragging rights, awards, etc

this is more about interests. i'm not interested in pony riding, so here's what i do - get the fuck out

i try not to get to indepth with this sort of stuff either, but philosophy is great form of skepticism

skepticism is what happens when things get too comfortable

[Just C]

But like I said mate, this is ALL we have to go off. Until the day arrives where strong counter proof is produced. I'm inclined to believe my senses.

Can you right now, this instance, in your next post, provide counter proof? Proof which supports this all being a dream?

If not (Not saying this to be a dick) you should save all that matrix limbo mumbo jumbo what if speculation, and your breath. Because it's endless pointless speculation. It's a hamster wheel if your going to throw these what ifs out of thin air nobody can prove to be false.

That's like me saying god exists and if you can't prove other wise then I am right.

I haven't seen God. Nothing proves he does exist so I'm content with what evidence I do have to go off.

I have senses telling me life is real. I have nothing "proving" otherwise.. You get the picture.

I know you're not pushing your view on me but the principle remains the same. I'll stick my trust in the ONLY proof I have.

When (If) the day comes we find out it was all just a dream.'it will be the most wonderful mind fuck of a revelation. Until then I'm happy living a "lie" que sera sera.

[Split]

what if we are all background characters in a particularly lucid Malachi masturbation trance?

His dad better not pop the latch before I finish college

[Mael]

Code Maroon, I repeat, Code Maroon.

We've got a loose nut. Gonna need The Cleaner asap.

@Masaii, Oh boy, you've really done it this time, mate.

[Objective]

next watch a movie "a waking life". Get back to me.

Excellent suggestion. Watch this one OP. It takes up some interesting points worth to take a closer look at.

[uh-oh]

NIGGAS

we dont have a soul, there is no astral projection, thats just you being a weirdo

we are just energy of the all

[Aesthetic]

When your dreaming, you don't remember memories from reality only fragments; never details. Vice-versa.

[namix]

I tend to agree with Just C. When I was younger debates and ideas like this interested me but now it just seems so pointless. If dreams are reality, cool. If dreams arent, cool. I'm not going to be the human who figures out and unlocks the truth in existentialism. Enjoy the ride and let the philo majors and thinktanks busy themselves with the impossible quandaries of being. I prefer not to fall in the well while looking at the stars.


Damn Cake, that was really well written and even came off genuine (not sure if it was or not), but def. the stance of the dudes that i most respect who do not care to chase the white rabbit anymore... for some reason when all of my buddies were in that mode you said you were in, that is when i had more of your current stance --- then one day i came around full circle and most of them had gone the other direction lol.

'i prefer not to fall in the well while looking at the stars" - well-put, literally... i just don't care where i fall anymore because i'm too deep in the well, but still appreciate those same stars. :D

[namix]

Excellent work Dr. Namix, but it looks like the patient is still asking philosophical questions. We're going to need to get him started on a second course. I recommend at least 6 more paragraphs, preferably administered in a wall-of-text format.

Great recommendation as usual, Doctor.

You have a better appreciation for the patient's symptoms than me, so while your dosage recommendations are clear re: the wall of text, what is your sense of the contents needed?

Based on your expertise, do the philosophical ailments require more ccs of right-brained philosophical/existential expansion or left-brained scientific/logical connectivity?

Your diagnosis will dictate the mix of the solution, as the wrong mix could lead to a negative reaction and overall poor prognosis. I appreciate your consultancy as always, and defer to your expert opinion on the best course of action.

Kind Regards,
Professor Cogito E. Sum, PhD

[Witty]

I think sometimes common sense needs to be used, people can convince themselves of anything, it's easy when there are no facts...common sense should be the answer.

As in...is life a dream?

No.

Why?

Cuz it just clearly is not.

[namix]

I think sometimes common sense needs to be used, people can convince themselves of anything, it's easy when there are no facts...common sense should be the answer.

As in...is life a dream?

No.

Why?

Cuz it just clearly is not.


agreed that common sense should be used more often in general - but i normally think that at times when, for instance, traffic lights lose power at an intersection and people start looking at each other like wtf do we do now until somebody makes the bold decision to just go and then finally we start 'taking turns' lol.



but since we collectively use common sense so poorly for even the most common questions/problems, it often makes it a less effective solution for questions like this imo...

if common sense truly satiated these types of questions, then the answer would be common knowledge, you know?



Now if you personally accept "reality is not a dream, because clearly it's not" as enough - then kinda more like Cake's stance, no doubt, let others explore it further if they want to and just be at peace with what you know/or don't care to know/explore further....

At some point it's up to the individual to decide, somewhat arbitrarily, how they want to define (and/or confine) the meanings dream vs. reality....

to me it's literally all the same thing and literally (physically) a different state of mind at the 'time'.

[namix]

Something I've always thought was fascinating about this topic though is --- if we look to some of the greatest minds of our kind, sooo many of them gave more credence to the 'reality of dreams' than the general consensus does...


Here is a suuuper quick snapshot of some -- plenty of others that are undoubtedly more relevant...

but word -- "common sense"-wise, I think it's important to consider how commonly we prove ourselves wrong time and time again throughout history --- and that our understanding of how shit works is limited by our technological/scientific advancements which were created without a complete understanding.

------------------------------
It is by no means an irrational fancy that, in a future existence, we shall look upon what we think our present existence, as a dream.”
― Edgar Allan Poe

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
― Albert Einstein

“I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?”
― John Lennon

"We cast away priceless time in dreams, born of imagination, fed upon illusion, and put to death by reality."
― Judy Garland

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience."
― Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

“Reality is wrong. Dreams are for the real.”
― Tupac Shakur

[veritas]

let me ask you this....if you could choose what was your reality, would you choose this life, or your dreams?

[Masaii]

let me ask you this....if you could choose what was your reality, would you choose this life, or your dreams?

Dreams

[Witty]

This life...why would I want my dreams to be reality?

[veritas]

Dreams

and why?

[namix]

let me ask you this....if you could choose what was your reality, would you choose this life, or your dreams?

Awesome!

I envision that question toward the apex of all NLP questions.... a subject i know little about outside of the end-goal and the initial starting point, but it's a starting point that actually makes it one of the most appropriately-named subject matters ever lol.

alas, since you are an NLP, i probably shouldn't have differentiated between end goal and starting point lol


I speculate you know my personal answer to the above, but if not, remember the future where differentiation between the two didn't matter and matter didn't differentiate ;)

[veritas]

Awesome!

I envision that question toward the apex of all NLP questions.... a subject i know little about outside of the end-goal and the initial starting point, but it's a starting point that actually makes it one of the most appropriately-named subject matters ever lol.

alas, since you are an NLP, i probably shouldn't have differentiated between end goal and starting point lol


I speculate you know my personal answer to the above, but if not, remember the future where differentiation between the two didn't matter and matter didn't differentiate ;)

I radically propose that dreams prove the "super-realities" existence. Existence without time or space constraints.

[NYCSPITZ]

namix and veritas be intriguing the shit out a nigga...

[namix]

I radically propose that dreams prove the "super-realities" existence. Existence without time or space constraints.

100%

while i started from the "science" angle re: brainwaves approaching sleep and how their characterized with a timeless state - i like how you jumped right into the deep-end lol.

starting from two points on each side of the line expedites the time it takes to meet in the middle where one finds there was a single point -- and a single point had no time the whole time.

[veritas]

What a terrible existence this would be if we were only able to imagine this super reality whilst we slept and there not actually be one eh?

[Masaii]

and why?

You only live for the present moment in dreams. In the 'real' world it seems that you are always living for the future, call it human nature I guess.

[namix]

You only live for the present moment in dreams. In the 'real' world it seems that you are always living for the future, call it human nature I guess.

word up, straight truth bro. it all comes back to our ability to perceive our existence beyond the constraints of time....

Here is potentially a radical statement to piggy-back V's radical statement (both of which I sincerely view as logical, just not commonly accepted until the dots are connected):

WE THINK TIME MAKES UP REALITY, BUT IN REALITY WE MAKE UP TIME.


...in fact, according to 3 out of 4 of our brainwaves*, TIME DOES NOT EXIST. (*edit note: 5 brainwaves including the random "gamma" burst, always forget that one lol)

Moreover, we only experience Time in our waken/alert state, brainwaves primarily Beta... a state which is also characterized by general timidness and fear... How poetic that almost all of our "fear" at some juncture can relate to "time" itself, none more prominent than our own countdown clock to death.

In dreams THERE IS NO TIME.... and to your exact point Masa, no worry for the future....

Dreams are just as real as any other experience, but many disregard it, because "in time" we're trained to give more credence to the world "of time"..

That same state of timelessness can be reached while "awake" - we jump across the levels, but the faster pulsing waves trump our experience a lot of the "time"...


It can be reached in deep meditative states -- or even seen in moments of someone just being "in the zone"... even when an athlete starts performing at seemingly superhuman levels, what do they often say? "it was like the game SLOWED DOWN for me"... they are still 'bound' by time in that example, but are not letting it serve as a parameter for decisions --- because it shouldnt be... they just "perform"...


In Summary:
1. We do not perceive Time in 3 out of 4 of our brain wave frequencies
2. The one state we do experience time in is in our waken/fearful state.
3. Close your eyes and slow your mind; slow your mind and see past the veil of time.
4. See past the veil of time, and see the super-reality Veritas mentioned....

It is always available, and always has been... The longer we operate in time, the harder it is to escape it --- until, for many, we approach the point of no return and face our own demise....

When we face the moment of our death... as V also says often, "remember the future"... it brings us to the decision point which helps us look past it... There are many fears and internal demons faced along each individuals way -- so that phrase helps them jump to the 'point in the future' they need to deal with (and empower them to do so) before they get to the ultimate question, but if one remembers the future in entirety, you will remember where the two points on the line of existence meet in the circle of life, and that time was just one of the demons which fueled our ego and desire for self-perseverance.




Remove the veil of time and see the super-reality which is right before (and after) our eyes. ;)

[Masaii]

How poetic that almost all of our "fear" at some juncture can relate to "time" itself, none more prominent than our own countdown clock to death.

I chuckled at the reality of this. Very good post Namix.