NOTICE: Server Migration - coming soon...

[namix]

FYI - we will be migrating the site to a new server. The site will be down for a few as part of the cut-over, but pretty much just to resolve to the new server... so it will be quick-like.

From there, God Of War and I will tell Site5 to put their unprecedented suckiness to work and blow us - then say goodbye to their server and hello to GoW's.


The migration will be quick and painless, the head will be slow and much deserved --- and from there, everyone can put SFW images back in their sigs. So be on the look out for The Fox in signatures near you.

Pc

[Ghost1]

NIGGA I DONT WANNA KNOW HOW MANY DIFFERENT ANIMALS GO INTO MAKING A HOTDOG

I JUST WANNA EAT THE SHIT


DO U UNDERSTAMD ME.DYNAMIX?

[God Of War]

lmao TRIFORCE

[Sicc]

He's beginning to type just like you, God Of War

[Witty]

yessssss

[Wise Wiggles]

LOL@ THE UNDERLINED S LIKE THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN ON NESSYS

[namix]

LOL@ THE UNDERLINED S LIKE THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN ON NESSYS

excellent point.

we will reactivate the privilege for select members only.

Admins, Mods, HOFers - The Fox, and others TBD.

[namix]

He's beginning to type just like you, God Of War

who is??

[Diode]

excellent point.

we will reactivate the privilege for select members only.

Admins, Mods, HOFers - The Fox, and others TBD.

you should read your Ts and Cs if you're going to be hosting stateside.

most prohibit pornography or linking to pornography on forums.

goodbye, reed's thread of the internet.

[namix]

NIGGA I DONT WANNA KNOW HOW MANY DIFFERENT ANIMALS GO INTO MAKING A HOTDOG

I JUST WANNA EAT THE SHIT


DO U UNDERSTAMD ME.DYNAMIX?

just tryna make a more delicious hot dog pawtna....or at least one that doesnt disappear from your hand right before takin a bite between 1-3 A.M. on any given night.

[namix]

you should read your Ts and Cs if you're going to be hosting stateside.

most prohibit pornography or linking to pornography on forums.

goodbye, reed's thread of the internet.

the T&Cs of the server?

if that's the case, we'll be in good shape :)

[Certain]

We're going to a porn server?

[Ghost1]

just tryna make a more delicious hot dog pawtna....or at least one that doesnt disappear from your hand right before takin a bite between 1-3 A.M. on any given night.

Dudes eatin hotdogs at 3am should have sum self respect.lol.

[PancakeBrah]

PORN SERVER!

WE DID IT!

[Certain]

Dudes eatin hotdogs at 3am should have sum self respect.lol.

http://i.imgur.com/LJiA8G4.gif

[PancakeBrah]

HOT DOG + SHREDDED CHEDDAR CHEESE + PIECE OF BREAD=PANCAKE PITA

[Strikta]

Porn server?

Fuck yea.

[Sicc]

who is??

Bags. Bags is beginning to type like GoW. With his elbows.

[Lars]

lmao how many times does a site/server of GoW's have to go down before people finally realise that's like a nail in the coffin for a board?

i actually like dude but he's easily one of the most untrustworthy and unloyal people ever to disgrace this board

the faggot put DIA in charge of this place for fucks sakes

cheated Knucklehead into paying to keep the board alive with his credit card after numerous times of being asked to take him off

there's plenty more shady bullshit just from AOW and this version of NC's without me even going into his stints elsewhere

this a bad move, mark my words

i wouldnt trust the guy as far as he could type 'mississippi' without a typo

[Strikta]

Cot Dayum, shun.

[Sicc]

lmao how many times does a site/server of GoW's have to go down before people finally realise that's like a nail in the coffin for a board?

i actually like dude but he's easily one of the most untrustworthy and unloyal people ever to disgrace this board

the faggot put DIA in charge of this place for fucks sakes

cheated Knucklehead into paying to keep the board alive with his credit card after numerous times of being asked to take him off

there's plenty more shady bullshit just from AOW and this version of NC's without me even going into his stints elsewhere

this a bad move, mark my words

i wouldnt trust the guy as far as he could type 'mississippi' without a typo

Damn. A nail in the coffin tho. Not a screw? A Nail tho? What kind of nail tho? Lets get creative here...

[Wise Wiggles]

excellent point.

we will reactivate the privilege for select members only.

Admins, Mods, HOFers - The Fox, and others TBD.

Can't take a joke I see
You're a lame

[Lars]

God Of War

[God Of War]

God Of War

im ready for it, i got to have a username n shit for namix tho to set up his account lol and an email, he never sent it to me

[Lars]

my point was, you one of the most interest-losing, short attention spanned, disloyal ship hopping at the first oppourtunity, characteristically untrustworthy and pathological liars I've known 'run' this forum

why would this time be any different?

[God Of War]

my point was, you one of the most interest-losing, short attention spanned, disloyal ship hopping at the first oppourtunity, characteristically untrustworthy and pathological liars I've known 'run' this forum

why would this time be any different?

lars, none of that shit you just said has proven true, matter of fact i have never fucked with you in that light or anyone you know


you are irrelevant here and anywhere else, you work a dead end job, brag about bar fights on the internet, try to prove that you are a fighter(which we know you are not), couldnt handle it in a real battle league so you started one of your own that fucking failed miserably...and you spend your days trolling on forums that no one gives two fucks about you being at...ones they would prefer you stay off of because all you do is relive something you did once 10 years ago


we're clear on this right?

[Hush]

Damn@ the it has not been proven true defense

[Lars]

lmao every so often this pussy hops on facebook hitting me up asking about can he sponsor my events out here and all this bullshit, nothing ever materialises because he's all fucking talk and no action

his life a giant lie, gow like the Truman of netcees and shit

he's always been the same in the ten years or whatever I've known him, desperate for the attention of the names on boards, he did the same back on rapboard with Respek BA way back. it was pathetic then and its more so now ahahaha

i put on events in my hometown all the time, money is money, why would i do something for free when i can get paid off it? simple economics for someone who apparently all about making dough, cut out the middle man, right? if you weren't such a blatant fraud you would see that pussy

text is really irrelevent but just to keep it a pound with you, i'm in the finals of the topical tourney here after a run through objective, certain/tha talent/pent up then vulgar

tell 'em how washed up i am bruh ahahaha

you a washed up lip-ring wearing pussy who modded dia and doesn't have an ounce of decency in his bones, you made up a make believe Australian girlfriend of yours called Bunny up when you ran flowGods and even scott akers hasn't plunged to those sorry depths

we clear about that, right?

[Sicc]

Yea...


Shit got virtual.

[God Of War]

lmao every so often this pussy hops on facebook hitting me up asking about can he sponsor my events out here and all this bullshit, nothing ever materialises because he's all fucking talk and no action

his life a giant lie, gow like the Truman of netcees and shit

he's always been the same in the ten years or whatever I've known him, desperate for the attention of the names on boards, he did the same back on rapboard with Respek BA way back. it was pathetic then and its more so now ahahaha

i put on events in my hometown all the time, money is money, why would i do something for free when i can get paid off it? simple economics for someone who apparently all about making dough, cut out the middle man, right? if you weren't such a blatant fraud you would see that pussy

text is really irrelevent but just to keep it a pound with you, i'm in the finals of the topical tourney here after a run through objective, certain/tha talent/pent up then vulgar

tell 'em how washed up i am bruh ahahaha

you a washed up lip-ring wearing pussy who modded dia and doesn't have an ounce of decency in his bones, you made up a make believe Australian girlfriend of yours called Bunny up when you ran flowGods and even scott akers hasn't plunged to those sorry depths

we clear about that, right?

I can PROVE THIS IS FAKE, i ask you , but you always tell me you aint down for it, or the events just happens out of no where.

im married with a kid, faggot, again you have no idea what you are saying

theres plenty of people here who is on my facebook who can vouch that

she is the sammmeee girl who co ran flowgods, so again your a fucking idiot

as i said, you have noooo idea what you are talking bout, your only rise in life is being a troll on a forum.

[PancakeBrah]

im married with a kid faggot

Well that was a bit harsh.

[Sicc]

GoW's married to another forum Admin, tho?


While you guys are having intercourse, do you battle?


That's dope. I have to get my wife in to battle rapping. She'd probably be better then the majority here.



Lol, let me stop. Hahaha

[God Of War]

But im done speaking with you, you know how many people is tired as fuck of you always talking stupid shit, admins tired because yuo always offer help then do absolutely nothing? your a fucking joke baron, you dont need me to prove that tho, you do that shit daily for yourself. dont address me as i said, it isnt worth arguing with you because it would produce nothing, because you produce nothing beneficial , you have always hindered more then you helped because you have this weird fucking fascination with wanting to be accepted

[Lars]

why you so scared to admit you don't like the disc part of netcees and you hold me largely responsible for it?

either keep it as pound in here with me or be gone, peon

no one here wants your help

i'll pay namix money for the server he needs out of my own pocket rather than accept anything from you

you're a liability and always have been

[God Of War]

why you so scared to admit you don't like the disc part of netcees and you hold me largely responsible for it?

either keep it as pound in here with me or be gone, peon

no one here wants your help

i'll pay namix money for the server he needs out of my own pocket rather than accept anything from you

you're a liability and always have been

ive done more for both forums then you ever will

you offer help then leave, are youuuu really talking bout jumpi9ng ship???

where did you leave netcees to help? rb? where did u leave rb to help? nc? rofl

come on man, get ur mind right

[Sicc]

Lmao @ the tag "nox is so fuckin lame"

[StarFaggot]

Let's fix it

[Lars]

ive done more for both forums then you ever will

you offer help then leave, are youuuu really talking bout jumpi9ng ship???

where did you leave netcees to help? rb? where did u leave rb to help? nc? rofl

come on man, get ur mind right

remind me again how stealing money from Knuckleheads account to keep this forum up was of any long-term help to this forum?

that doesn't make you a martyr to the cause, it makes you an untrustworthy lying piece of thieving shit who's word is as frail as his bird chest

[God Of War]

remind me again how stealing money from Knuckleheads account to keep this forum up was of any long-term help to this forum?

that doesn't make you a martyr to the cause, it makes you an untrustworthy lying piece of thieving shit who's word is as frail as his bird chest

explain to me again how knucklehead said he said that cuz he was mad cuz i was going to sale the site to chrit

please explain this

see i had to buy the vbulletin liscence for this site, guess who still owns the vbulletin liscence for this site baron?

[Lars]

CHRIT OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE THOUGH, LIKE FOR REAL?

you offer zero stability here, you get bored and pass the buck

do you not see how for the long term benefit of the board, you're not the right fit?

diode would be our best bet, tbh

he actually knows what he's doing. he's tried tested and proven. you're tried, hopeful at first, but ultimately not worth the time of day

i mean, modding dia and handing ownership here to chrit? your management and decision making madd suspect yo

[God Of War]

CHRIT OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE THOUGH, LIKE FOR REAL?

you offer zero stability here, you get bored and pass the buck

do you not see how for the long term benefit of the board, you're not the right fit?

diode would be our best bet, tbh

he actually knows what he's doing. he's tried tested and proven. you're tried, hopeful at first, but ultimately not worth the time of day

i mean, modding dia and handing ownership here to chrit? your management and decision making madd suspect yo

I got tired of the site, i did i really did i didnt have time to handle it, so not unlike you baron i am trying to do something in real life to, a board takes constant attention, I am not offering namix anything but a server that he has is own hosted account to like he does now only I OWN my server and he dont have to worry about paying 70 dollars a month for,


no one knows what there doing btw esp in this day n age because everything is a fucking crap shoot.

[Diode]

no one knows what there doing btw esp in this day n age because everything is a fucking crap shoot.

yeah no on this one.

i know exactly what i'm doing.

once the contract is up with the arabs i'll move back to a stable server and repopulate. there's no point in doing it right now since it lags so frequently.

[God Of War]

yeah no on this one.

i know exactly what i'm doing.

once the contract is up with the arabs i'll move back to a stable server and repopulate. there's no point in doing it right now since it lags so frequently.

doesnt mean your going to have a popping site, or an active one

[Lars]

diode offers long-term stability though, you don't

your sites constantly go down or die once you lose interest

your track record of involvement with online forums is abysmal in comparison

I'd join diodes before I'd sign up to another hundred short lived ones of yours

[Diode]

doesnt mean your going to have a popping site, or an active one

i had over 40 people join and be active after the overhaul and before the site started going down. and that was with minimal effort.

so yeah. no.

[trap.]

why you so scared to admit you don't like the disc part of netcees and you hold me largely responsible for it?

either keep it as pound in here with me or be gone, peon

no one here wants your help

i'll pay namix money for the server he needs out of my own pocket rather than accept anything from you

you're a liability and always have been

70 a month, let's split it.

[Diode]

70 a month, let's split it.

lmao @ 70/month

this site does not warrant a VPS. tell you what, gimee 60 a month and i'll get you a private dedicated server hahahaha

[Lars]

70 a month, let's split it.

i'm down for real

gow is 100 percent the wrong guy for this shit going forwards


namix

[trap.]

lmao @ 70/month

this site does not warrant a VPS. tell you what, gimee 60 a month and i'll get you a private dedicated server hahahaha

lol, don't know anything about this shit I just know that I don't mind contributing to the continuation of the site. all this moving about is counterproductive. and since I have a lot of money and hardly use it, why not?

[Diode]

lol, don't know anything about this shit I just know that I don't mind contributing to the continuation of the site. all this moving about is counterproductive. and since I have a lot of money and hardly use it, why not?

because you could have your own dedicated server for that much. this site requires colo hosting at best. $7/month, not $70/month. this is like the only forum on the internet with a legit license.

[Diode]

anyway i have a bunch of xenforo stuff i'd like to play around with if Lars wants to start his own site.

vbulletin is dead.

RIP.

[Lars]

i was looking more to just stop gow having any say in what happens here

i legit don't think he is good for this board

too homotional and a turn coat

[Hush]

Starting anew is bad
namix is a good leader

Let's stay the course boys

[God Of War]

i was looking more to just stop gow having any say in what happens here

i legit don't think he is good for this board

too homotional and a turn coat

lmfao you ran to rb crying with ur fucking tail between your legs asking for help

you ran back here and your trying to ask to help here now

your a turn coat

and diode if you can get a site popping like that then prove it the shit wont happen

[Diode]

lmfao you ran to rb crying with ur fucking tail between your legs asking for help

you ran back here and your trying to ask to help here now

your a turn coat

and diode if you can get a site popping like that then prove it the shit wont happen

you do realize i've done it before with PR, right?

[God Of War]

i was looking more to just stop gow having any say in what happens here

i legit don't think he is good for this board

too homotional and a turn coat

plus your not good for the board, you ran to rm and rode there dick "lets get this popping" then they laughed at u, u ran to rb "lets get this board popping this is my home" rofl they fucking laughed at you, now your back ehre screaming the same shit

ur a modern age dagel except you do absolutely nothing for the sites you are on except make people not want to post on them because all you do is troll,act like a faggot, and give false claims of bar brawling

[God Of War]

you do realize i've done it before with PR, right?

listen man, it was easy to do when the shit was much bigger then it is now, do it now

id like to see it happen id like to see you start a forum that stays consistent with alot of activity or even moderate activity esp in the state all this shit is in

[Sicc]

Did this migration happen already? LOL

[Lars]

lmfao you ran to rb crying with ur fucking tail between your legs asking for help

you ran back here and your trying to ask to help here now

your a turn coat

and diode if you can get a site popping like that then prove it the shit wont happen

lmao Ron lying like his name pronounced Rawn and shit

you the faggot who admitted to 'giving up on the board' here before going AWOL then resurfacing over at RB rhen you thought the smoke had cleared

the smoke aint cleared faggot, its been blown straight back up your ass which is what got you so irritable

dont even try to make this a you/diode thing to avoid confrontation with someone real like me who will expose how big a fraud you are to this entire site in a heartbeat

dont make me have to check you twice

bet.

[Wise Wiggles]

^ both Rons are pronounced the same. I believe it's just a difference in spelling..

[Diode]

^ both Rons are pronounced the same. I believe it's just a difference in spelling..

i pronounce rawn like this:

gre-gor-y chrys-tal

how bout u?

[God Of War]

lmao Ron lying like his name pronounced Rawn and shit

you the faggot who admitted to 'giving up on the board' here before going AWOL then resurfacing over at RB rhen you thought the smoke had cleared

the smoke aint cleared faggot, its been blown straight back up your ass which is what got you so irritable

dont even try to make this a you/diode thing to avoid confrontation with someone real like me who will expose how big a fraud you are to this entire site in a heartbeat

dont make me have to check you twice

bet.

please faggot you didnt check a mother fucking thing

i can copy post after post of u over there at rb "come on guissseee we got to do this for the site this is my homeeee"



lmao gtfo of here. i aint one of them little noob guys u try to pick on so u can flex and show ur flabby ass muscles to fat boy



by how u act on here is how i can tell irl you dont throw nothing at them bars you claim you go to, u run your mouth to much thats how i know you get smacked in it

i bet in real life you do the same shit u do here, u step up to some little kid younger then you and try to push em around

im done addressing you because out of every one here dawg you are one of the biggest cancers, because this is all u really do right here ur the same dude jumping from site to site trying to troll things, its bad enough to where al the admins talk about how much of a cancer you are to there platform and there vision

so say what u want, and until your doing something positive for the scene then dont speak to or at me

[namix]

im ready for it, i got to have a username n shit for namix tho to set up his account lol and an email, he never sent it to me

i dropped it in our IM convo bro -- i'll hit you up on FB with it

Site5 gave me an invoice for the big number today, which I fully intend not to pay, but want to make sure we transplant the site first lol!

[Diode]

i dropped it in our IM convo bro -- i'll hit you up on FB with it

Site5 gave me an invoice for the big number today, which I fully intend not to pay, but want to make sure we transplant the site first lol!

i would highly recommend downloading a full site backup (not just a cpanel backup)

[Split]

Brb saving archives

[WZA]

I'm eating alot of popcorn right now..

[Destroyer]

so basically what, we got a few days left?

[God Of War]

i dropped it in our IM convo bro -- i'll hit you up on FB with it

Site5 gave me an invoice for the big number today, which I fully intend not to pay, but want to make sure we transplant the site first lol!

did u sent it? if u did u can set up ur account now
i dont want to have access to ur account so id rather u put ur own pass n shit in its why i need ur email

[PancakeBrah]

Brb saving archives

[God Of War]

i would highly recommend downloading a full site backup (not just a cpanel backup)

there trying to tell him this site is using its resources up

that shit is absurd its such a small site still

[Diode]

there trying to tell him this site is using its resources up

that shit is absurd its such a small site still

vbulletin is a horrible resource whore if not optimized properly

[God Of War]

vbulletin is a horrible resource whore if not optimized properly

stil bro you cant tell me this site is reaching its limits for cpu usage

bandwidth and shit is unlimited etc

[Lars]

i knew it

gow doesnt know what he's doing

dont say i didnt warn y'all

[Diode]

stil bro you cant tell me this site is reaching its limits for cpu usage

bandwidth and shit is unlimited etc

i can believe it. the vb database is horribly inefficient.

[Split]

no one will ever post on Xenforo, Diode. I'm sorry

[Rawn MD]

ron is a ron

and

rawn is a rawn

right?!!??!
Whys Weighs

but srsly u try to b my prison penpal or suttin Diode

but yo topic at hand - unlimited does mean unlimited does it not? or there is a limit to the unlimited limit or something in the small print?!?!?

[Diode]

no one will ever post on Xenforo, Diode. I'm sorry

RM is doing fine.

and they will have to eventually. like i said, vbulletin is dead. the company that bought it ruined it. vb5 is a total disaster and they've suspended all support for vb4.

[God Of War]

RM is doing fine.

and they will have to eventually. like i said, vbulletin is dead. the company that bought it ruined it. vb5 is a total disaster and they've suspended all support for vb4.

yeah but most of rm went to the new site that is a vb site lol

[Sicc]

What's the new site?

[Diode]

i'm just saying. vb is dead.

[Sicc]

What's the other site, tho?

[Diode]

What's the other site, tho?

www.projectrhyme.com

[Rawn MD]

nice skirt there Diode

[Diode]

nice skirt there Diode

let me love you like black and decker, rawnold

[Sicc]

Weird layout. White and blue makes me feel colored blind, wtf. Lol

[Allen Knight]

so if i have anything saved in my inbox i should copy it and save??
will this move erase shit?

[Certain]

I really dislike the new templates for RapMusic and Project RHYME. I like vBulletin's format, having been on a variety of other types of message boards.

[Diode]

I really dislike the new templates for RapMusic and Project RHYME. I like vBulletin's format, having been on a variety of other types of message boards.

PR is vb4. If you want a vb3 style template just use the b-boys one.

RM is xenforo.

[Certain]

so if i have anything saved in my inbox i should copy it and save??
will this move erase shit?

namix can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the move happened two days ago.

[Allen Knight]

oh loll ight then

[Certain]

Diode, what I don't like about your setup (all of them) is how much space the header takes up. I like Netcees Purp because it has no header and makes for better at-work browsing. Also Netcees Purp and a few of the other skins here have modular screen width.

[Diode]

namix can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the move happened two days ago.

the move never happened. gow needs to set namix up with credentials still.

[Ghost1]

LOL. Faggot allen

[Certain]

Well, then. It was supposed to take place Wednesday, though, right?

What do I know.

[Diode]

Diode, what I don't like about your setup (all of them) is how much space the header takes up. I like Netcees Purp because it has no header and makes for better at-work browsing. Also Netcees Purp and a few of the other skins here have modular screen width.

if you select the metro fluid it is modular

also space? jesus what resolution are you running at, 800x600? lol

[Ghost1]

Allen still a faggit doe.

[Certain]

No, that's not it. When I'm at work, I don't want a visible header. I turn off signatures, too. I don't have a boxed-in cubicle, so a passing coworker can see my screen. I'd rather it be completely unclear what kind of message board I'm on, even if it's obvious I'm on a message board of some type.

[Allen Knight]

LOL. Faggot allen

i will destroy u today, this weather got me ready to unleash
rage on ur life u scum bag, i will make u think about the things u have done
in life u faggot. i will cross the line, dont push me u noodle slurping muthafucking product of incest piece of shit.

[Diode]

No, that's not it. When I'm at work, I don't want a visible header. I turn off signatures, too. I don't have a boxed-in cubicle, so a passing coworker can see my screen. I'd rather it be completely unclear what kind of message board I'm on, even if it's obvious I'm on a message board of some type.

use one of the mobile skins then

or vb4 default

[Ghost1]

Lol. I hope ur ratchet family is swallowed up in a snow covered sharknado u greasy spook.

[trap.]

I think the site (pr) looks good, it's just about as slow as upn though.

[Rawn MD]

Diode then ur equivalent to a 30$ trick thats found on the side of the street, which i wouldnt even bother to pick up

ud have to be at least DeWalt quality to even get a glance...and commercial grade, not that at home sht

[Witty]

The fox is waiting.

[Sicc]

I think the site (pr) looks good, it's just about as slow as upn though.

Ok, so it wasn't my connection. I felt it was a little slow as well.

[trap.]

I meant slow as in traffic.

[namix]

namix can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the move happened two days ago.

GoW was still setting it up on Friday -- haven't been able to get a hold of him yet this week though.

God Of War -- holla when we can flip the switch bro, our clock is ticking on site5 obv.!

[Diode]

GoW was still setting it up on Friday -- haven't been able to get a hold of him yet this week though.

God Of War -- holla when we can flip the switch bro, our clock is ticking on site5 obv.!

having second thoughts yet?

Lars

[namix]

having second thoughts yet?

Lars

second thoughts on what, using GoW's server?

You're in the industry man, you know how it goes. im sure dude's just busy.

At this point any move away from site5 at this point is a move in the right direction...

but we do need to figure this out in the next couple days...so if anyone see's GoW around def. tell him to holla at me lol

[Lars]

he's at RB

[trap.]

lol

anyone check out netcees.com lately?

[Lars]

last I did it had a pic of some woman and was some kinda search engine?

[Lars]

just checked, same shit

LOL

[Diode]

just checked, same shit

LOL

melbourne it was the domain holder via yahoo domains (rip) and refuse to release it. they want a couple thousand for it via auction.

hell no.

[Lars]

wtf @ few thousand though

what else could it be used for?!

[Diode]

wtf @ few thousand though

what else could it be used for?!

it has SEO value from lama spamming the entire internet with the URL back before google fixed its pagerank algorithm

[Ghost1]

Man.....

Lama faggot forever


But he knew what he was doin

namix

Do some.lama shit, son.

[namix]

Man.....

Lama faggot forever


But he knew what he was doin

namix

Do some.lama shit, son.


lol, like the trick where he made the site disappear after years of wasted effort?